Its one of the longest running debates on the internet. Quite simply, who would win - muggles vs wizards?
I've had FB conversations running into the hundreds of comments on this topic, with opinion typically divided about 50:50. Some are adamant that the wizards would 'obviously' win, while others, including myself, caution that in the long-term the Muggles would likely dominate.
Part of the reason this debate goes on so long is that it hasn't ever really been depicted in fiction. We haven't seen a film or book about it (though admittedly I'd love to try writing some fanfiction along those lines someday). However, there are other proxies in media we can draw upon as supporting evidence.
X-Men Days of Future Past came out a few weeks ago, and depicts a scenario quite similar to a hypothetical Muggles vs wizards war (spoiler alert). In the near future, mutants have been hunted down to the brink of extinction. One must immediately wonder - how did this happen? With members of their kind having the ability to shoot fire, control people's minds, teleport, transform their bodies, telekinetically control metal or the weather, phase through walls, heal from almost any injury, and so on, what could possibly defeat them?
There is an answer however -
Despite their powers, the mutants are badly outmatched by the 'Sentinels' - a class of newly built machines designed to detect and kill mutants. Relentless, all-but numberless and very hard to destroy, before long the mutants can only keep running. Ultimately there is nowhere to hide.
We see in the film how the various superpowers the mutants have prove ineffective against the Sentinels. Flames that would easily boil a human alive hardly bother them, while freezing them will only keep them are bay temporarily. They can't be mind controlled, confused or otherwise attacked telepathically. Even Magneto struggles against them, as they are made of a composite material without any metals. Here's a clip here -
While admittedly the technology required to build them is said to involve 'tissue samples taken from Mystique' so that they can rapidly adapt their bodies to new conditions, we can assume this is just a handy plot device. There's no reason to believe that advanced machines of this nature aren't just around the corner in real life. They're essentially terminators after all, and given how quickly robotics and drone technology are advancing, its not hard to believe we'll be able to build similar creations within a few decades.
The point I am making is this - most of the superpowers and special abilities you see among the X-Men have strong parallels in Harry Potter. Sentinel-like machines would be immune to most curses. They couldn't be imperiused, or tortured with the cruciatos curse, while Avada Kedavra would presumably be useless. Like inferi, they don't bleed, rendering Sectumsempra ineffective. You couldn't perform memory or confundus charms on them, or any of the other little tricks wizards use to hide from Muggles.
Sure there are some spells the wizards could still use. Wingardium Leviosa could perhaps be used to levitate them away, while violent curses like Confringo or Reducto could still blast them apart, but how many times will that be good for? A skilled wizard could take out a few, but given our advanced industrial society, we could surely make many millions of them. Almost half a million tanks were built by the warring sides in WW2 for instance, and that was back in the 1940s. Some 60 million cars are now built every year, and in a wartime situation that number could be multiplied quite a few times over.
The exact demographics of the wizarding world are somewhat in dispute, but the wizards appear to consist of somewhere between 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 10,000 people worldwide. This comes to a total population of around 1-5 million. It seems we could easily build a hundred Sentinels, or even a thousand, for every wizard alive within a few short years.
Looking at some elements of the wider debate, and thinking it through logically, most wizarding defenses could be penetrated one way or another. An invisibility cloak might hide you (presuming it blocks all forms of radiation, including infrared) but it doesn't omit sound. A person's footsteps, or even their heartbeat, would give them away instantly to a sensitive microphone, with which the Sentinels would surely be equipped.
Alternatively, a wizard could perhaps conjure up a box around themselves, and perform an unbreakable charm on it. Assuming that 'unbreakable' is meant literally (i.e. you could drop a nuke on it, or fling it into a black hole, and it still wouldn't break) this doesn't meant that the contents on the box would still be safe. Try picking up the box and dropping it from a tall cliff. The box may not break - but the people inside will.
A demonstration of precisely this occurs in the movie The Incredibles. Superpowered Violet is able to project shields around herself. These easily stop bullets and other small objects, but at one point Syndrome's Robot - which clearly weighs many hundreds of tonnes, flings itself down on top of her, knocking her down and almost killing her when she crashes against her own shield.
It also says nowhere that an unbreakable barrier doesn't permit heat to pass through it for instance, or other forms of radiation. Try lighting a fire under the wizard's unbreakable hidey-hole, or target a laser on it, to boil them alive inside. A flame-freezing charm might avert this, but one wonders how powerful such charms really are. There are obvious limits to magic. A wizard can easily levitate a feather, but not a mountain. They can presumably survive a fire, which burns at around 1,000C, but could they survive a nuclear explosion, where the temperature can get into the millions of degrees?
Wizards can also apparate, giving them a very handy method of escape, but one wonders exactly how many times it could be used. Eventually even wizards have to sleep, and it only requires one mistake out of a thousand to let the Sentinels catch you. Then there is the question of how you'd be alerted to their presence in the first place. Accurate guns can target an enemy kilometers away, before they even know you're there. Check out this video of an American helicopter attacking insurgents in Iraq for instance. Its hovering in the dark miles away before it opens fire. How does a wizard deflect a bullet they can't even hear coming? (fast forward to 2 minutes in)
One further point would be the question of how the Muggles would even find the wizards in the first place. Refuges like Hogwarts and Diagon Alley have presumably gone undetected for centuries. There are likely ways around this however. It is repeatedly said that electronics don't work around Hogwarts. This would actually seem to be quite a vulnerability however. This means that, like sending a canary down a coal mine, an inexplicably malfunctioning machine would be a sure sign of magic nearby. There are said to be further charms on Hogwarts to ward off muggles - including making the castle look like an old ruin, making intruders forget why they are there, or alternatively causing them to suddenly remember urgent appointments and compel them to leave.
These would seem fairly weak in the face of the modern world however. It might have been enough to prevent the odd peasant from wondering onto Hogwarts' grounds back in the Middle Ages, but how does it affect aerial or satellite surveillance? Here's what you do - spot the ruin, send in a few scouts, and if they come back looking somewhat bamboozled (as if by magic) try dropping a nuclear bomb on it.
There's also the unmistable genetic trace of wizarding blood. The way it's depicted in the books, the ability to use magic is obviously a recessive gene, one passed down through the generations. The Harry Potter books occur in the 1990s, which is before the completion of the Human Genome Project in 2003. As of 2014 it should have been possible by now, or would be soon, to detect these genes through routine DNA tests. Indeed - this same mechanism is used by the sentinels to detect mutants, as well as people who might one day give birth to mutants. X-Men again delivers.
Now there are some possible methods of the wizards causing mass death and destruction among the Muggle populace that I've seen suggested. They could infiltrate the Whitehouse and the Kremlin, imperiuse a number of world leaders, and spark a nuclear war killing billions. Even this wouldn't be an end-all however. The world's nuclear arsenals have been steadily shrinking for decades, and even a successful strike would only kill a large chunk of the world's population. Muggles would still outnumber wizards by a hundred or thousand to one. Hell even if only New Zealand survived - with its four million people, the wizards would still be outnumbered.
There are other suggestions, like putting large batches of sleeping potion in the water supply, or broadcasting a TV image of a Basilisk's face. These could certainly kill (or in the latter case - incurably petrify) millions of people, but far from everyone. Many people already get their water supplies from rainwater, and of course not everyone would be watching TV at any given time.
Even major losses like these the Muggles could easily recover from. Our population is exploding at a rate of almost 100 million people a year. We've survived world wars, bubonic plagues, famines, earthquakes, hurricanes...more than a million of us die in traffic accidents alone every year and no one bats an eye.
The bottom line is this - no matter how hard they tried, wizards would be unlikely to ever compete with cancer, malaria, AIDS or heart disease as a leading cause of death among the human population.
There is one possible caveat to all this however, though it is by no means a trump card. The X-Men in Days of Future Past do eventually escape the Sentinels. This is by sending a message back through time to prevent their creation in the first place, which is the real subject of the film. Time travel does exist in the Wizarding World, however J.K Rowling herself has stated that Time Turners can only safely be used to go back a few hours -
There are further problems with this. If wizards can utilize time travel, then why couldn't Muggles? As far as I'm aware, its never been said that a Muggle couldn't use a Time Turner if they stumbled across one. For a wizard to go back a significant time period, i.e. to make more than a tactical difference to their situation, they would risk preventing themselves from ever being born in the first place, making it a case of Mutually Assured Destruction. This is probably the best the wizards could hope for.
Other than that however, in a full-on war against the Muggle world, the wizards probably wouldn't have a hope of winning in the long run. At the rate our population is expanding, and our technology is advancing, we're rapidly leaving them behind. Think Nazi Germany invading the Soviet Union. The German armies were devastating at first, but the Soviet's numberless reserves eventually wore them down. An old quote by Von Clausewitz also comes to mind - 'Never fight the same enermy too long, or he will learn all your tricks...'
Think also of the sorts of technology we'll likely have access to in the near future, everything from interstellar travel and antimatter bombs to being able to upload our consciousness into machines. Before long its no longer a question of Muggles vs Wizards, but every devastating hard sci-fi weapon you've ever heard of...vs a few wizards.
It'd be a slaughter.
To conclude - the wizards can run, but they can't hide.
Let me begin by saying I have no idea whether muggles or wizards would be the dominant tyrannical overlords. I have simply read the books a few times and have studied electronic engineering.
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree regarding Imperious and Cruciatos. Both seem to be tailored spells for a biological target. Your muggle sentinels would want to be designed without any critical biological systems. Avada Kedavra, whilst also designed for biological life, seems to do some pretty nice damage to inanimate objects that get in the way. May not be the most effective attack against a sentinel but could do some damage. And again, the sentinel would need to be devoid of biological life (no biologically based quantum processors allowed).
DeleteAnother question needs to be proposed, 'are the sentinels drones or AI?' If drones, pilots could be imperioused. If AI, can one confund AI? I think so, more later.
DeleteConfringo, Reducto and Wingardium Leviosa are, but a few charms/transfiguations/spells suitable inanimate objects. Given that one wizard can control an entire castle load of suits of armour (similarly magneto can control sentinels infused with metal) I'm sure gears/servos/actuators/etc. wouldn't be too much of a challenge. And if all else fails couldn't they just turn them into frogs?
On to defence, you claim to accept that invisibility is useful but can be thwarted with sensitive microphones. I would suggest that fooling optical sensors is much harder than fooling auditory sensors. Don't forget muffliato (essentially projects white noise on the target). An awful lot of sensor technology is based upon the detection of waves. Infrared, ultrasonic, radio, etc; if they can jam/mask sound and light waves surely it would be a simple adjustment to jam/mask other signals.
DeleteNow we come back to AI. AI is dependent on sensory input. The input could come from local sensors (optical/microphone/radar) or remotely (gps or some other globally gathered data). If the AI cannot make sense of its surroundings due to signal jamming/masking is this not a form of confundus? Confundus Machinas?
Next you try to use physics? Let's see... many magical locations are in compressed space. Grimauld place fits between two houses that share a wall. The room of requirement is any size it is required to be. Platform 9.75 fits within a barrier between stations. The Knight Bus and ministry cars can lanesplit like a motorcycle. I could go on (floo powder, time turners, the ability to pass through solid objects, etc.) but I will just conclude that the Weasley's Ford Anglia was converted to compress space (contain a truck load of people and luggage) by one man; in a shed. Clearly physics is a doddle to wizards.
DeleteYou say an unbreakable box may not protect from heat or radiation; an unbreakable box with heat and radiation shielding would.
Even muggles can do heat and radiation shielding.
Then you talk about aparating and guns. Yes, wizards probably can't aparate while sleeping but muggles need sleep too. How do muggles manage? They guard, they work in shifts. Wizards can probably figure this stuff out too. I agree aparating might not be the best defence against gunfire but you seem to think that wizards can only do one thing at a time. Muggles have Kevlar; wizards have - thanks to the Weasly twins - shield hats/cloaks/etc. There are also other things like supersensory charms to act like radar or other early warning systems. And to top it off the healing skills of wizards are incredible. The only injuries they have problems with are magically caused... so only friendly fire.
DeleteAs if bullets weren't enough, you want to nuke them?! Not only that, you want to base your targets on people acting confused. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a pub with you in charge. You want to base targets on electing dead zones? I hope you're not with Vodafone. Additionally, once a nuke is deployed what stops it from being neutralised, relocated, vanished, transfigured?
With all these nukes flying around I think there may be a lot of people sympathising with the wizard cause. Given the popularity of the books I think the wizarding world would have a great many non-magical allies. I don't think wizards would necessarily be as outnumbered as you suggest.
You have already established yourself as a tyrant and then you show you are also a Slytherin. You claim an "unmistable genetic trace of wizarding blood". If the books say anything at all it is that wizarding has NOTHING to do with blood. You must have missed the whole pure-blood mud-blood stuff somehow.
DeleteWhen it comes to the offencive skills of the wizards I'll leave that up to you. You seem to have some novel ideas. However when it comes to time travel I'm pretty sure the only limiting factor is the ethics of the wizards. They don't do it because it could cause powerful changes. Could completely disrupt a given time line. If the warring parties were evil enough to consider nukes I'm pretty sure destructive time travel would also be on the table... or perhaps a surgical strike to spike your mum's coffee with some kind of contraceptive potion.
Your final thoughts are about the technological development of muggles in the future, the technological superiority that will end the wizards... what makes you so sure the wizards aren't making their own developments?
To conclude - the wizards can already hide extremely effectively. As for running?! Why run when you can fly and dissaparate. Running is soooooo muggle.
Thanks for commenting. I'll say right out this article is as much a starting point to a debate as a conclusion, so there's certainly room for discussion. I also like the fact that someone who appears to be in their 30s is arguing this seriously. Us Harry Potter fans really grew up didn't we? :)
ReplyDeleteFirstly - Isn't Muffliato biologically tailored as well? I doubt it would have an effect on microphones.
On the topic of physics, and the wizards being able to make unbreakable objects and compress space, there are surely limits to this. A lot of these spells we never see performed, but they are presumably very difficult and complicated. On a tactical level, think of the spells cast during the Battle of Hogwarts. We don't really see any extreme spells of this nature cast. Mcgonagall is a powerful witch and the most she does is animate a few hundred suits of armour (and its implied they're sitting there just for that purpose) as well as a classroom's worth of desks. These are hardly actions which are going to bother an armoured division in a modern army.
In what's probably the most telling example of the wizard's weakness they are clearly threatened by mere giants. Giants in Harry Potter are described as being 20-25 feet tall, and seem comparable in size to elephants. Elephants haven't been used in Muggle warfare for centuries, ever since the invention of gunpowder really. A few companies of Marines armed with rifles, machine guns and rocket launches would seem quite capable of taking on the defenders in the Battle of Hogwarts. If a giant's going to worry them, how about a tank? Let alone Terminator/Sentinel-like machines as described above.
As for things on a strategic level - have you ever played the civilization games? In them its possible, though rare, for a bronze age spearman with strength 4 to take out a gunship unit - strength 24. Some people complain about this and say its implausible. However, I just think they haven't thought it through.
On an open field of course the gunships would win, being able to massacre an army of spearman on the ground. It would be incredibly stupid for the spearman to fight them this way however. If they hadn't ever seen gunships before then yeah, they'd be stuffed. But after a few encounters they'd surely figure out better strategies. Why not wait until nightfall, and a time when the helicopters (or at least most of them) are refueling, and attack the crews on the ground in their camp? These are still routes through which the spearman could win, which is reflected in their small (but still very real) chance of taking on even the most modern armies.
For a real-life example, Vietnamese guerillas were able to take on the US army armed with much simpler weapons because they were smart about which engagements they chose to fight.
In other words - on a day-to-day basis the wizards would probably win, and could usually escape if they couldn't, but it isn't a case of winning 'most' battles, they have to win 99.99% of the time, or they're losing.
As for technology - with their smaller population and reliance on magic, the wizards are obviously advancing much slower than the Muggles. This is referenced numerous times in the books.
Finally, you seem to have misunderstood the whole genetics thing. Absolutely it has to do with 'blood' (i.e. - genes). Muggle-borns don't come out of nowehere, they simply have an ancestor who was a witch/wizard but who's genes have simply skipped a few generations. There's no reason to believe these genes couldn't eventually be detected by Muggle science. Wizards aren't some completely separate species, they interbreed with muggles, obviously they have DNA in their cells. I've never heard any suggestion otherwise.
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Muggle-born#Origin_of_magical_abilities
Says it is hereditary not genetic. If it was genetic there would be far more wizards in the world. It has to be a special magical hereditary that is beyond muggle science. The biology doesn't work.
DeleteOK lets go through these chronologically.
ReplyDeleteHow is a microphone different from an ear in terms of function? I'm sure that if there was an impending war, then spells would be devised that can deafen machines.
Spells of extreme strength are in HP - think that big-ass fire elemental thingy in book 7 by either Crabbe or Goyle. The reason you don't see more of them, is that, generally speaking, wizards go out of their way to avoid harming each other and muggles with their magic (even in scenes where there are groups of wizards fighting each other, they avoid using big AoE spells because they would risk hitting unintended targets). If there was ever any kind of all out war, that caution would be thrown out the window. In fact, the point that you have brought up again and again of there being far more muggles than wizards would work Very heavily against you here. A single wizard (who isn't even all that adept at magic) can apparate into and around a base of muggle soldiers and cast a few of those fire elementals, then disapparate away, and let the magic run wild killing hundreds of thousands of people.
I really don't think you've given the idea that wizards by and large Avoid using much strong or advanced magic, not because they can't or its particularly difficult, but because of the potential danger it poses to the wider population.
As for the gunship analogy. If you were to use an accurate scenario, it would play out more like spearman with strength 4 against sentinel with strength (10,000,000+X) where X is any attack the spearman does.
And finally, and i think most importantly, is the idea of numbers. Saying there are 7 billion people (muggles) in the world and only 7 million wizards, is kind of pointless. You are implying there are 7 billions muggles who are capable of fighting wizards in any capacity. If the wizards were to go ahead and kill 500 million soldiers in the course of the next 2-3 years, you know what the rest of the worlds population would do? Bow down to their wizard overlords.
I think its a bit beyond the scope of the debate to look at the human aspects of such a war. The problem is that it would go both ways - yes many muggles might be compelled to surrender to the wizards if they caused enough damage. But on the other hand, some of the wizards might get tired of running and killing and try to end the conflict peacefully as well. This is not to mention that muggle-born wizards are quite common, and some would be bound to pick sides either way. We're really just talking of a simple match-up.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, as for the wizard's potential for destruction - the suggestion of Fiendfyre of some other curse whose power merely keeps on expanding I don't think is a practical one. The only time we see Fiendfyre cast is in the Room of Requirement of course, which because it is magically sealed, means the fire doesn't spread elsewhere.
When you think about it though, its ridiculous to assume that the fire would just keep expanding forever. That means all it would take is for just one wizard capable of casting such a spell (or any other self-replicating charm for that matter) to recklessly do so - and pretty quickly the whole world would end.
Clearly, this hasn't happened (in the history of the HP books I mean). If one wizard could destroy the world, or at least a large part of it, so easily, the odds that it hasn't happened by now are practically zero. Think of how often people get angry and suicidal and just think 'fuck it' and go on a rampage. It would only require one wizard equivalent of a mass shooter to kill everyone.
Ergo - with such spells, there must be limits on the scale of the magic they can perform. Note that even Fiendfyre fed on the material in the RoR - it burned, meaning that the fire still needs fuel, even if it is enchanted. Its probably like the equivalent of sparking a fire on a 40 degree day when it hasn't rained in weeks - very virulent, but not unstoppable. A powerful wizard could probably cast such a fire capable of burning down a few city blocks, maybe killing a few thousand, but I don't think more than that before the magical aspect of the spell burns itself out and it reverts to a normally spreading fire. Maybe a fiendfyre caster caused the Great Fire of London in 1666 perhaps? It just doesn't add up with basic human psychology otherwise.